suggesting recently used presets (multiple suggestions; iD is way better at this than JOSM)

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

The biggest problem with tags panel that tags (obviously) only in English.

Beginners in OSM struggle in JOSM more than iD with tags/presets.

I don't know about best solution for this, but one option would be in toggle dialogue for presets.

I also like how presets are displayed in iD, but English-only tags are collapsed (but not completely hidden) by default.

Ideally, there should be possibility to mimic iD behaviour.

Also, I would love to see regular preset autocompletion (F3) but in Ctrl+Spacebar autocomplete. Idea is that you have single autocompletion tool, not multiple. In most popular and rich text editors, there only one Ctrl+F menu (there no special hotkey for "search in files", "search in directories" - they are just checkboxes).

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to openstreetmap.org-user-d1g:

The biggest problem with tags panel that tags (obviously) only in English.

The matching presets are linked in this dialog and the translation is shown there.

I also like how presets are displayed in iD, but English-only tags are collapsed (but not completely hidden) by default.

english tags are displayed in the preset windows in grey or via mouse over. see #12286

Also, I would love to see regular preset autocompletion (F3) but in Ctrl+Spacebar autocomplete. Idea is that you have single autocompletion tool, not multiple. In most popular and rich text editors, there only one Ctrl+F menu (there no special hotkey for "search in files", "search in directories" - they are just checkboxes).

In the F3 menu there are only presets for quick searches. Also the last used presets are diaplayed on top. The idea was to not clutter the search menu item menu (strg+space) with preset entries, because there is an own window (F3). If you want to search for presets you don't want to see all menu items, so using only one for both would not be better in my opinion.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

The matching presets are linked in this dialog

Sure thing, but iD developers have way more in ​their "default" preset.

I was suggesting JOSM as editor to my friend, but we struggled to find these common "lit" "surface" "lanes" he seen in iD by default (without any presets and plugins). This question rises every time I speak with iD editors, they simply expect common tags in core (internal) JOSM preset.

​http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=23978 - Kilkenni expressed iD-like behaviour in 2014 (while some tags he suggesting are still exotic, please don't neglect general idea)

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

BTW

In the F3 menu

In iD, there no "menu", no shortcut to press, you simply press text in a search field.

Current top-right corner search field could be placed more aggressive (similar to what iD does) in toggle panels or always above them.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

The idea was to not clutter the search menu item menu (strg+space) with preset entries, because there is an own window (F3). If you want to search for presets you don't want to see all menu items, so using only one for both would not be better in my opinion.

Yes but this could be achieved by using single autocompletion interface with multiple checkboxes: ​https://www.jetbrains.com/idea/help/searching-everywhere.html

And Eclipse lacks this feature (as always): ​http://stackoverflow.com/a/25832126

JOSM does exactly this in Ctrl+F interface: checkboxes and radio-buttons, not multiple dialogues to "include items" "exclude items" "regex search" "mapcss search"

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

Not only by default JOSM says nothing about "lit" presets, but there so much more things displayed to iD user without have to click on anything (F3 or a preset caption to see a full preset).

1. Unlike in iD, you have to explain "how to open preset"
2. Unlike in iD, you have to explain "how install additional non-core presets if they are invisible in editor" (iD adds as much tags as they could in their "main" preset and I like this approach because it is easy to ignore 50 wrong items than to install 15+3+30+10+25 tags in every tiny preset until you finally see captions in your language)

[stoecker]

JOSM is not meant to be the click-and-go editor. It's much to powerful for that. When a user is not willing to learn such simple things, then he simply should not use JOSM but iD instead. The harm he can do without proper learning will simply be much to high (with a few clicks you can cause others hours of work to fix what you broke).

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

JOSM is not meant to be the click-and-go editor.

Do you have a shortcut on your refrigerator, before you open/close it? (some models open by dragging a handle) Should we all use "manual" transmission?.. Should we use doors with locks and keys instead of springs and magnetic doors and RFID?

I hope you get this idea. We probably don't need ONLY manual transmission in JOSM. Right now, you have to install presets to have a "lit" key as "освещён" :)

(with a few clicks you can cause others hours of work to fix what you broke)

Yes, but our goal to add details in database and to keep it 100% accurate, not to prevent every single mistake, not to configure our editors every time (it is nice feature, but not everyone have to do that).

And if we have a wrong decisions in JOSM (copy iD behaviour) for 4-10-50 revisions, we could revert code back where it was.

When a user is not willing to learn such simple things, then he simply should not use JOSM but iD instead.

Thing that I contacted real people who wanted to learn OSM things, not JOSM-specific, but they encounter way too many questions for "their first edit in JOSM". The only option I could suggest is to use tools that show tags in their language (for example): iD, Vespucci, OSMAnd, others.

They use iD+JOSM or Vespucci instead of JOSM, because there 0 actions from their side to use them. They don't have to type maxspeed=40, there a text field maxspeed=[] always visible when a highway=* selected.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

When a user is not willing to learn such simple things

In the way default settings pose it (ATM) to them, they don't have a second life for this :)

They have a full-time job, a family, a part-time they spend surveying the world, and only little time to enter what they seen. BUT: they will spend some time learning josm tutorials about configuration (at least 15 minutes and up to 3 hours later). Will waste their time searching for "lit" key in all Presets (they will spend up to 2 minutes among 99 items).

They won't use JOSM anymore, lit was displayed in 1 second. surface, maxspeed, etc. This is a real example, I have seen seen this with 4 technical professionals/CTO in their 40-50-60s.

Similar ideas were expressed by GIS experts, please consider this:
​http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/DeBigC/diary/38044

And this days I'm not able to use iD for anything more than simple quick fixes.

Ask yourself why JOSM cannot replace iD in simple edits?

[Klumbumbus]

JOSM has a different UI concept then ID. ID uses the full height for the preset display. We could make a preset toggle dialog if it would be the only toggle dialog. However JOSM has other important toggle dialogs.

Regarding your lit example, the situation is actually opposed to what you describe. JOSM has a preset for lit (in the context where it is useful, e.g. in the highway presets). ID has no lit preset in the highway presets (see your screenshot).

(iD adds as much tags as they could in their "main" preset and I like this approach because it is easy to ignore 50 wrong items than to install 15+3+30+10+25 tags in every tiny preset until you finally see captions in your language)

For JOSM we don't like this approach. We prefer to only include well established tags. See DevelopersGuide/DefaultPresets.
If the goal of a osm mapper is to see "captions in his language" then he is doing something wrong.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

However JOSM has other important toggle dialogs.

Yes, we can hide them by default and show only when necessary (there many dialogues/layers in iD which are hidden in the right panel).

For example, most users with single data layer and single imagery layer, don't use Layers list features (menus, duplication etc)

Regarding your lit example, the situation is actually opposed to what you describe ...

Yes, I confused a footway with service.

I tested ​latest iD vs 9979 version, my statement holds not for service, but for a footway.

For JOSM we don't like this approach ...

It is easier for JOSM developers, but current JOSM policy is time consuming for all users, not only for preset developers (or JOSM devs, which shouldn't care about presets so much, except for core/basic preset functions IMO).

1/20 of the issues about (core) presets: ​https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=is%3Aissue+label%3Apresets+

You can delegate this "big core preset" thing to community reports, patches and feedback.

Even "core" tags are not written in stone: building=entrance, wood=*, others

Instead of single source of truth "core preset" you delegate this to EVERY single end-user... They have to pick and check every of 99 sources.

It is similar if there dictionary only words staring with A, a separate book with B, a separate book with C. Yes there only 28 letters, but why would you need this granularity in presets in the first place?

Most mappers want only popular and correct words (tags) not all millions from Taginfo (meaningless tag are wasting everybody time) or only 10 "core" (in JOSM).

There no point in teaching that natural=tree is for "tree" or learning this "skill".

There no skill or knowledge in this. There no need in dedicated presets for "a tree". It's only a technical limitation or approach to manage tags, not to solve our problem (When to tags and which?)

IMO this policy was created only to say that "developer/maintainer of A preset didn't update it in time?" not a "core JOSM developer"? Or "presets A and C could do this?" not a core preset (JOSM core preset is almost empty by iD standards)

If the goal of a osm mapper is to see "captions in his language" then he is doing something wrong.

JOSM is way worse, it doesn't show that lit=* is possible to use with footways.

Checkbox lit [ ] - is directly accessible (to enter data in value) after object selected (but in JOSM you have to search for a right preset first, then for a right field)

And autocompletion only works if somebody used tag lit=* before in this area. This means there won't autocompletion in JOSM, but this feature will be in iD (for footpath (s)), regardless how badly region is tagged.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

In simplest form, it could nice to have a tool, that can convert iD core preset > JOSM preset, so that users could swap JOSM preset with iD preset.

I'm not sure if somebody did it before... How long it would take?

[Klumbumbus]

Replying to openstreetmap.org-user-d1g:

For JOSM we don't like this approach

The reason is that we don't want to support tagging schemas, which are not yet established and therefore maybe have issues. The community should decide on the tagging schemas by using them (not the developers of an editor).

You can delegate this "big core preset" thing to community reports, patches and feedback.

community reports, patches and feedback are welcome. If it is reasonable, we include it in the default preset.

only 10 "core" (in JOSM).
...
(JOSM core preset is almost empty by iD standards)

That's simply not true. JOSM core preset is very large as well.

If the goal of a osm mapper is to see "captions in his language" then he is doing something wrong.

JOSM is way worse, it doesn't show that lit=* is possible to use with footways.

It does. Open the footway preset and you see the lit checkbox. Your comparison screenshots are not fair. The correct screenshot for JOSM would be footway_preset.png​.

Checkbox lit [ ] - is directly accessible (to enter data in value) after object selected (but in JOSM you have to search for a right preset first, then for a right field)

you don't have to search, it is linked in the tags membership dialog. It is one more click than in ID, but this is due to the different UI concepts.

And autocompletion only works if somebody used tag lit=* before in this area. This means there won't autocompletion in JOSM, but this feature will be in iD (for footpath (s)), regardless how badly region is tagged.

No, autocompletion works for all tags in the presets.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

It does.

The correct screenshot for JOSM would be footway_preset.png​

Yes, but my point is that "but in JOSM you have to search for a right preset first, then for a right field", not that is impossible :)

F3 keypress / or mouseclick on icon (click on icon is only intuitive if you KNOW what is here). If you multiply this by number of objects you enter, you will get crazy numbers. This is about mapping performance.

Also, about UI/UX: simplest interface for searching is text-field [search... ] - not a preset icons or a hotkey (F3)

That's simply not true. JOSM core preset is very large as well.

simply based on preset file-size, yes, there tons of items, but very few fields displayed in JOSM without clicking (i.e. they are hidden or require an action(s)

This is "only manual transmission" of JOSM :)

You have to: not only select an element, but also to select a preset you want to modify.
In iD, relevant preset will be opened automatically when object selected.

In, iD:
if you select a node without tags:

• up to 4 previous preset a user entered will be displayed at top of list (there no need in CTRL+C + CTRL+V of tags or F3). Less complexity for beginners please.
• 9 top classes would be suggested automatically
• one menu item could state "node"

if you select a way without tags:

• 6 top classes would be suggested automatically

But in JOSM (in addition to what was said in previous messages):

• Help/MainToolbar is absolutely static and will suggest highway presets even for tag-less nodes ...
• you have to know about F3 hotkey to search by name (IMO this search field should be always visible by default, similar to iD)

Possible improvements:

• Help/MainToolbar may display N latest presets picked by user - similar to iD (this is an automatic autocompletion many users miss from iD)
• ofc we need fix highway presets when nodes selected (there shouldn't be any error message, there shouldn't be any possibility to make this mistake in JOSM in the first place)
• direct autocompletion/search in menutoolbar (because all presets are here actually)

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

In, JOSM shops are not displayed in maintoolbar?.. But this is one the most common use cases when users start with OSM: is to add a few POI/shops they are missing or were updated recently IRL.

[openstreetmap.org-user-d1g]

Problem is that iD suggests so many options in general by default: address, notes, fixme... Many iD users are addicted to it:

iD#TagsMembershipsDialogislesssuggestivethanfieldsiniD

There no shortcut to press, all options are available in one place. It is easier to use than current defaults in JOSM.

Even JOSM has all alternatives, they are simply spread everywhere in editor compared to iD defaults.

There was a scientific study that majority of population are unproductive with keyboard-only interfaces (thus vi/vim/emacs are for keyboard geeks) in contrast to WIMP, I'm not able to find it.

Here is some basic ideas why WIMP is important: "Considerations for Information Visualization Interactions" - ​http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/nath/docs/naturalinfovis_infovis2012.pdf

SO many shortcuts to memorize:

​http://productivity.stackexchange.com/questions/677/how-do-i-get-more-productive-from-using-keyboard-shortcuts

Can you imagine if an excel allowed to pick a cell only after you enter a shortcut/coordinate?

One of ex-Apple UI/UX/Interface designers stated in his personal blog that a program should not have "a hidden state".

This is exactly what JOSM doest horribly wrong by hiding all possible presets from a user (hidden in F3 poppup, hidden in tag panel by default).

Behaviour of users after they seen iD is following: I have seen presets in iD, they work; I don't see presets in JOSM, there none. I have to use tags, I don't have time to memorize all quirks in old keys=*

It would be better if search in presets will be explicitly visible and show by default.

[Klumbumbus]

As summary from my point of view: I agree that it could be useful if the search preset window (F3) would also be availible as toggle dialog and thereby always visible.